S4
Episode 2
Lights, Camera, Digital: The Art of Entertainment Marketing
About This Episode
We look at best practices in entertainment marketing, creative approaches to draw in audiences, and emerging trends.
Amanda Au | Co-Founder, Anti Agency Group
Transcript
Episode Introduction (00:00:00)
We’ve seen entertainment branch off into so many different variations. We’ve seen a lot more creative marketing in the space. So you have to be so smart with your content because there are just some really brilliant creators out there who don’t have any budget, but they’re racking up 10s of 1000s of views and minutes watched. And that’s what you have to compete against. And all of that is free compared to your ticketed download or your ticket purchase.
How Agencies Thrive Introduction (00:00:25)
But then you think about the social landscape. The research data is hugely significant when we combine all of these different touch points, so that long-term loyalty and then diving into the clicks to leads to sales, gotten to a point where it can drive better results in audience targeting, and really is what’s going to set you apart. You’re tuning in, you’re tuning in, you’re tuning in to the How Agencies Thrive podcast.
Sneha (00:00:49)
Earlier, we had simpler ways to keep ourselves entertained, like watching a movie, catching a play or going to a concert nearby. But now, if you’re in entertainment, you’re competing for the user’s attention among so many things, television channels, switching between this OTT or that one, binge-watching your favorite YouTuber, scrolling endlessly on social media. And of course, podcasts like this one. According to Statista, total revenue for entertainment is expected to show an annual growth rate of 10.5%, resulting in a projected market volume of 48.7 billion US dollars by 2027. Now that’s a lot. And we need an expert to cut the clutter and get right to the chase. Let’s find out what’s happening in the world of entertainment marketing. Hello, and welcome to the How Agencies Thrive podcast. I’m your host Sneha Suhas from StackAdapt. And joining today, we have Amanda Au, our head of Marketing Strategy and Client Services, also co-founder at the Anti Agency Group. Hi, Amanda, thank you so much for joining us. Please tell us about your professional background, your expertise and also introduce your organization to us.
Amanda (00:02:10)
Yeah, I’d love to. So thank you for having me. I started my career on the big agency side at one of the large holding groups hired fresh out of college, I was a social strategist on the OMD Warner Brothers team. So that’s really where I got my start, I was very lucky to have been placed on such a large account. Working with movies that I got to watch growing up and continuing to work on products that you get to see on the big screen was really exciting and glamorous. And from there, I’ve gone to other large agencies and also client side over at Amazon, joining the Prime Video team when it first started, I think I was employee number 19 on that team or something like that. And really seeing the inner workings of a studio, how a show really goes from script to the big screen and everything in between. And now as an agency co-founder, we work with a lot of entertainment studios. And nowadays it looks so different that it could be, you know, working with a large studio like Universal Pictures all the way down to, you know producers, indie films, things that go straight to VOD, but you know, still star your favorite actors and actresses nonetheless. And so the landscape has really changed. And anti-agency, we’ve been lucky to kind of work with a really good mix of people that have really grown and evolved with the changing entertainment landscape. So you know, we’ve really stuck our guns with theatrical campaigns all the way to streaming clients. And now even broadening our horizons with live entertainment. So working a lot with off and on Broadway as well. You know, so we’re very lucky, we get to work with a very interesting product, stuff that you know, our friends and family engage with on a regular basis. And it’s a very exciting subject matter. And also, from an industry perspective, you know, one that gets to test out a lot of first market betas, you know, and has very interesting creative that we can do a lot of testing with. So we’ve been very fortunate in this space to kind of see that change, especially in the last I think decade where we’ve had social evolve. And then also really now with the streaming wars happening, and really being front and center with that.
Sneha (00:04:25)
Amazing. You’ve brought so much experience to the table. I’m really excited to talk to you. And I want to start off with this first question about the journey of marketing entertainment itself, right. First part is about the product itself. Like I mentioned earlier, we had limited options, you know, this movie or that, but now it’s evolved so much and there are so many options to choose from, for what we consume as entertainment. And for the marketing part of it. It’s evolved right from maybe, you know, out-of-home, television radio, to digital marketing. So where is it at today? Could you paint a picture for us?
Amanda (00:05:04)
Yeah, I mean, it’s really changed so much. I think the word entertainment also has just so broadly defined. If you ask 10-15 years ago, really, we were talking about, you know, theatrical movies and TV shows. And now it’s really evolved to what you said earlier, it could be anything from YouTube to creators on social, the competition is really intense. And I think because we’ve seen entertainment branch off into so many different variations. We’ve seen a lot more creative marketing in this space, and a lot of competition, because a lot of times now, you’re marketing against content that is a direct competitor, you know, to what you’re pushing out there. And so you have to be so smart with your content, because there are just some really brilliant creators out there, you know, who don’t have any budget, but they’re racking up 10s of 1000s of views and minutes watched. And that’s what you have to compete against. And all of that is free compared to, you know, your ticketed download or your ticket purchase. And so it really depends, I think, on what branch of entertainment you’re really talking about. I can start from theatrical right, which is where I started 10 years ago. And that looks so different, because at that time, you know, we were really focusing a large portion of our budget on traditional media, really pushing awareness as the first and foremost KPI. And so you were looking at a lot of out-of-home, in all the major DMAs, the splashiest billboard you can buy in Times Square, you were looking at Superbowl spots, any TV spots against prime time, and even radio at that point was a huge get. And now you’ve seen the transition, obviously, there’s still a lot of money flowing through traditional placements, but really understanding that people are spending time in other places. And so as we’ve seen consumer behaviour turn, we’ve really seen that money follow along with it. And so, as us as consumers adopted mobile devices, we’re spending our time elsewhere, especially within social media, we’ve seen a huge explosion in dollars moving towards the digital space. And there’s just so much more ground to cover. I think in general, it’s interesting how we see kind of the talks about how advertising spending either goes up or down. And it’s they tried to make it about this fight between I think traditional and digital, but really the amount of screens, and I think places that you can buy advertising has just exponentially grown. And that really should be the focal point of the conversation. You know, it’s less of a fight nowadays, between should we be spending money on this large TV spot? Or should we push that money into digital and buy more social, but really, it’s about where we can even buy where we can target, and then really being smart about it, because you have so many more options than you did a decade ago. And so I think that’s really where the shift has happened. It’s because of availability, and the potential that has really evolved in the advertising industry, that has led to all of these strategic shifts in where people are spending their dollars. So you 100% still have a lot of money being invested in traditional placements, and they do work. I think we’re big believers of using that when it makes sense. But now you’re also seeing a lot more money, being invested in digital, in audio, in digital out-of-home even now, right and really being open to testing more things. And I think we’re also seeing dollars, that traditionally were thought of maybe more as PR dollars, and now being invested in influencers in brand partnerships and affiliate marketing. So again, there’s just a lot more channels for us to invest our advertising dollars in. And really that’s I think what caused a major shift in marketing behaviour, more than anything else is just this bigger opportunity to spend your dollars. And so we’ve depending on what we’re talking about, you’re still going to see you know, your fancy bus shelters and bus wraps and whatever, for theatrical but now you’re probably seeing an explosion across social media and and it’s probably becoming hard to differentiate, you know, did that last TikTok that you saw? Was that actually an organic post? Or was it actually a paid post? And, our peers are just getting so smart with it. And I think that’s really what we want to see from everyone. Right? It’s kind of this double-edged sword where, you know, yes, we want consumers to know, and be smart and aware that what they’re seeing is an ad. But we also as advertisers want our ads to be so good that they just think it’s you know, authentic content. And so there’s this interesting fine line that we’re walking right now, between our media investment and creative investment. And I think a lot of it has just been a lot of experimentation, especially post-pandemic, where, again, consumer behaviour has shifted and really understanding what works. And I don’t know, if we’ve necessarily seen very strong trends come out of the pandemic just yet, I think we’re still kind of trying to figure out what that looks like. But in the last 10 years of how quickly things have evolved, and grown, I think it’s just going to be a constant moving target, and those that don’t try to adapt are gonna get fallen behind.
Sneha (00:10:42)
Yeah, you spoke about a lot of opportunities and a lot of experimentation happening right now. And there’s also a switch to programmatic social search from traditional media, like you mentioned. So I’m guessing there could be gaps in education on this. So what are those things that marketers or clients could generally go wrong with in terms of executing or even asking?
Amanda (00:11:09)
Yes, I think one of the biggest things that we tend to see is programmatic being treated as a substitute for meeting minimum that direct publishers usually require, right. So you know, rather than having to put all their eggs in one basket with one publisher, in their minds, programmatic is this open network where they can try out multiple sites at one go, but they’re still very specific about what sites they want to be on, I think a lot of them are still stuck in this mindset in that there are very premium placements. So you know, they’re used to buying like, whatever the Yahoo homepage, there used to buying those, you know, the premium skins across deadline.com. And so those are the things that they’re really thinking about. Moreso it’s the context of the site that they’re on, because in their mind, it aligned with this premium audience that they’re trying to reach. But I think we’ve forgotten how big the Internet has really gotten. And there are so many sites out there depending on one person that you can visit. And so sometimes I think they fall into this pitfall of trying to cherry pick a lot of where they’re trying to run their inventory, because they’re treating it again more as this buffet of premium sites and less so thinking about the consumer that they’re trying to reach and all the overlays they can do from a behavioural standpoint. And so I think that’s one of the biggest pitfalls we see, especially when we’re trying to introduce programmatic to a partner. And we understand, you know, it is a big scary world out there on the internet, there’s so many nooks and crannies, there definitely is a little unsavory things out there, too. And like how do we help educate clients to understand that we can work with partners like StackAdapt, who have kind of this built-in safety net for brand safety, and how we can additionally layer things on to kind of guarantee that we are reaching, you know, active and quality users on the other side of that screen. And so I think that’s been the biggest piece. It’s evolved from this conversation of oh, like, the whole internet is just bots. And you know, how do we guarantee and verify that traffic to now trying to understand like, oh, we can trust you know, the technology that we’re really using a trust all the targeting segment, and be diligent about AB, testing a lot of this, so that we can help ourselves improve in the long run, but still utilize how the industry is evolving for the better. So I think that’s one of the major pitfalls. And then I think the other side is, you know, for clients that have become a lot more comfortable, there’s so much room for growth. In terms of utilizing programmatic, I think many clients probably just tend to really scrape the surface when it comes to what they can do. But understanding how all the different channels within one ecosystem can really help each other. And why it is beneficial to run programmatic audio, digital out-of-home, display all together in one ecosystem, and what that can do for them in the long run in terms of building a stronger retargeting strategy, in terms of defining more insights about the consumer journey, I think a lot of that is barely touched by a lot of clients, especially newer ones. And a lot of it does stem from I will say entertainment campaigns tend to be a little different then say, CPG or retail, they’re very short. Right? So you have these very short life that are no longer than maybe, I mean, four to 12 weeks at best, right? And unless you’re building a large franchise, where you’re going to guarantee to have 10 Fast and Furious movies, you’re likely not going to be able to reutilize the retargeting data to a tee in the future and so really keeping that in mind thinking about what your slate looks like, how can you build audience segments that are going to be applicable to another film, you know, what is your studio’s general slate strategy and how you are thinking about the films that you’re acquiring or producing, how that latter back up to kind of one holistic audience that’s going to really speak to your particular studio. So things like that kind of stem back up to a greater strategy within the studio itself. But having your marketing team be aware of that so that they can play into it is so important. And not a lot of times, does that level of transparency kind of trickle down that way, a lot of times, I think in entertainment, they need to really think about, you know, how it’s going to trickle down, and affect longer-term strategy, how it’s going to affect that next film, and really thinking smartly about that. So that the programmatic strategy can work in the long term and big picture for a studio. And a lot of times, unfortunately, that information doesn’t trickle down to the team. And so a lot of entertainment marketing can feel very short-sighted in that way, because you’re only planning for that one release weekend. And then after a theatrical film is done, you kind of move on to the next one, especially when you’re working with bigger studios who have you know, 20 plus films coming out in a year, they move at such a speed and then consumer behaviour also, on the flip side changes so fast that what you did a year ago was almost non-applicable anymore. So I think that tends to be also a bigger struggle, as well, with some of the entertainment clients.
Sneha (00:16:37)
That’s interesting and, you know, talking about movies, and if we had to specifically focus on an ad for a movie, you know, say the call to action would be watch now or book tickets, these are things that would need a lot of time and a commitment to a certain appointment as well. Right? So the customer journeys might not be linear. And if we take the example of a film like we did, we need to watch the trailer, hear our friends speak about it, read reviews, and then make that decision. So what channels within programmatic? And even outside of it, would you recommend for different parts of the funnel? If you could also give us a breakdown of what each part of the funnel is that would be great.
Amanda (00:17:24)
Yeah, I mean, and this is where, you know, we still say traditional plays a huge role, because it does really need to establish that initial awareness. And there’s a reason why trailer-type content works really well for the entertainment industry. And so there’s a very strong skew towards video placements across the board, whether it is on the big screen in these linear spots, or when we start looking at YouTube TrueView, or when we’re looking at social video as well. And so I think that’s when it becomes really important to start thinking about frequency, right, and frequency used to be really built upon display and social because they were the most cost-efficient channels. And so we used to see a lot of money gathered there. And now it’s really expanded because as a consumer, your behaviour has also really changed. And so now when you’re out and about your day, I mean, you check your phone, probably upwards of 50 times a day, but you’re using a ton of different apps, you’re also going to either see billboards, or you’re checking your email on the computer during your workday. And so I think, because there’s so many different digital touch points, that you can really find someone in a single day, there’s so many more places, I think that we have now kind of advise the client to really think about, but it’s also less about really the exact placements, but also how you’re guaranteeing that you are reaching the same person, time and time again, to build up that frequency. Because usually, there is limited number of dollars, right? And so being really smart about that. And knowing that if you can only realistically reach 20% of your target audience at a frequency of say, 10, how do you make sure you’re actually building that average frequency with that same group of 20% people, right. And so that’s really what we ask, you know, our clients to think more about, rather than really how many places they can really run. And again, that’s why it goes back to being in a single ecosystem is really great, because you can really track their behaviour. And so, you know, when we’re working with programmatic, you know, starting out with digital out-of-home, and then kind of working our way all the way down from audio and then to display to really make sure that we can retarget each from each channel and really build a much more holistic look at a single person’s consumer journey to match back up to that frequency and then also being really smart about how we’re using off channel retargeting strategies too. So one thing that we really love doing, especially with StackAdapt, is we’ll build a meta pixel. And we’ll hand that off to our StackAdapt team so that we can retarget people who are engaging with our ads through the StackAdapt ecosystem. And again, we know that meta and StackAdapt sit, you know, clearly in two different ecosystems. And this is our way to kind of bridge them to talk to each other so that we can continue to build up that frequency. So there are awesome tricks like that, that we love to use, and really think about, again, how one person is going from one device and one screen to another. And really more about that experience from a consumer end. Really more than what specific channels or tactics makes sense. For this film, it should be really what specific tactics and channels makes sense for this target audience. And then the film should kind of fit into that right, it should fit into their natural journey already. Yeah, so that’s how we more so think about it. And again, that includes multiple ways, I think, where now we have more advantage from an advertising perspective, to be more specific about the partner and the channel that we do choose. And a lot of it comes down to the targeting capabilities, that’s going to be offered by these different platforms and channels, it’s also going to be dependent on the type of creative that you can run to, and what makes a lot of sense. So for instance, like audio, we find it really great from a frequency-building standpoint. But if it doesn’t have that initial awareness, maybe the title of the film is not unique enough. It doesn’t have any actors, maybe that would ring a bell, and it needs more of a visual element that we might recommend against it, and switch it out with say, more cost-effective video. And so there are different tactics like that, too, that we really take into account. Because, again, the product is already existing for us in the entertainment world, it’s already created, it’s already done. You know, there’s very specific value ads that we can go ahead and put out there. And so really thinking about how that fits in to the target consumer and what resonates with them, is the key thing that we try and think about, you know, as we talk about which tactics and channels that we’re really going to utilize here.
Sneha (00:22:21)
So, Amanda, we spoke about a host of things, you know, campaign tactics, what’s happening right now with traditional media versus digital media. So could you tell us how we can measure the success of campaigns?
Amanda (00:22:37)
Yeah, so in the world of entertainment, it’s usually very easy to decide whether or not we were successful. It’s all about either butts in seats or sales. And so there’s a lot of markers, I will say, where in the past, we’ve tried to really guess you know how a films going to do, there’s been millions of dollars invested into programs to try and predict the success of film based off all of these different KPIs. But the core KPI at the end of day is just about how much money that these studios are going to make back, right. And that’s generally what most businesses track back to. And there was a very interesting phenomenon, I think, early on, in the theatrical space, particularly because a lot of the ticket sales were happening either through Fandango, you know, they were being bought through Fandango.com. And that was about I would say, probably like 30% of sales. And then all the other sales are basically made at the movie theater itself, right. And this was before, when you can pick seats in the movie theater, you literally just showed up with your date, you looked at the big screen, you looked at the times on the board, and then you decided really right then in there, what you were going to watch. And so a lot of that purchasing decision was made in a place where we couldn’t track. And so that’s why also I think a lot of the bigger entertainment campaigns tended to be so awareness heavy, obviously, TV operated slightly different you’re trying to drive tune-in, there are different metrics that you’re trying to amount to. But at the end of the day, you wanted your movie or your TV show to be popular. And so if we really tried to, I think, look at a different measure of success outside of sales, because that’s just so obvious, then I would really say and maybe I’m a little biased because I have a social background, but it really is that social chatter that we really really strive to generate. Really putting your movie into the zeitgeist is what a lot of studios and production companies really strive for. It makes it feel like it is everywhere. It’s talked about, it’s that watercooler conversation that creates the FOMO that all of these studios are really looking for. And that’s why I think also there was the ability to kind of shift really into that social space and be where those conversations were happening. It’s definitely a double-edged sword, right, because it’s also the most public of conversations that were happening. And so, you know, my background a lot, especially for Warner Brothers, was really measuring a lot of the social conversation. And while it was really remarkable to see how there is a correlation to how much social chatter is happening, compared to whether or not I think your film was going to be embedded in the zeitgeist, I won’t even talk about sales, particularly because I think a film can be very popular, but not have great sales, because it was just the wrong weekend, for it to come out, right, but it’s still probably going to make dollars back in terms of video on demand, licensing, you know, being sold to a streamer, there’s other ways for the studio to recoup their dollars back outside of now, just opening weekend. And all of those social metrics are really going to help close that deal after that. So a lot of times now we’re really looking at how popular a film is based off how much social buzz that we’re seeing across it, right. And, it’s kind of a double-edged sword that I say, because social conversation is the most public, it’s the only one that you can measure. So obviously very hard to see if something is going to be talked about literally at the watercooler, you know, in these offline conversations, but using social as that proxy, is really what we saw a lot of studios tend to gravitate towards, and it’s still something we still see very important to them to this day, because again, it’s the thing that breeds franchising. It breeds sequels, right, it breeds better licensing deals for all of these studios. And so I think that’s going to be another huge marker for it. And so we’re seeing studios now try to be more embedded, I think, in pop culture, and relevant conversations. So and that even starts with a lot of like casting decisions, right? It stems all the way from when the movie is being produced to to the marketing itself. And I think the best marketing, entertainment campaigns that we’ve seen, have really acknowledged what’s happening in these live environments, and what conversations are taking place in finding relevant ways for their movies to really kind of mesh with that. And I think that’s why we also see kind of a shift towards influencers as a proxy for having those relevant conversations, basically, being plants, you know, for these studios, and also huge shifts into brand partnerships as well. Relying on brands that have built in audiences, so that they can kind of ride off the wave knowing that, you know, a theatrical campaign is probably too short to really build that large of an audience unless you’re going to be I don’t know, like a Barbie, right where it’s been anticipated for over a year. So you’ve had over a year to kind of really build that audience. Otherwise, if not, you have three weeks to make someone fall in love with you. And it’s much easier to use the power of a friend in the form of another brand to kind of help you do that through brand partnerships. So I think there’s going to be a lot more of that too. Just because they have to get smarter on how to get you to pay attention. And I think it’s again, it’s all kind of stemming back from this. It’s like a new way of word of mouth, right? Social for sure is, I guess, the most basic form of word of mouth, that basically trying to fake it till they make it through brand partnerships through influencers and finding other ways to really build brand equity in such a short time, I think is going to continue to be the key that we see because us as consumers, we’re just we’re getting really really smart, we can see through it, we’re really, you know, there’s too much information on the internet about actresses, productions, directors and whatever, right. And so it’s becoming harder and harder to kind of fake it in that way. And so your trailer is just no longer going to cut it. And so finding all those other angles, whether it’s below the line or above the line to really engage consumers with the show or the movie you have is going to be the next key I think, to being really successful here.
Sneha (00:29:03)
If a marketer right now is just starting off, or maybe working with a smaller organization, on a smaller budget movie and promoting a smaller budget movie, or something, which is not so large scale, may not be a movie but an entertainment piece. What would you know, what are your suggestions for them? What approach would you give them at this point?
Amanda (00:29:27)
Yeah, I think the first key is to really be realistic about your resources, and to plan from that perspective, because if you’re at the core of it, a smaller film or you just don’t have the resources of a larger studio, but same tactics that work for them just realistically aren’t going to work for you. And so making sure that you have a game plan that’s realistic for your budget, I think is very, very important. And I think a lot of times when we’ve worked with smaller studio audios or even filmmakers directly. You know, there’s this very glamorized, you know, purview of Hollywood. And they want that. And of course, we want that for them too. But just being very realistic about, you know, the resources that we have. And knowing that, you know, if you’re going to spend all of your money buying one TV spot on linear with zero support, otherwise, it’s most likely just not going anywhere. And so I think that, to us, is really the key thing that I would remind anyone is just being really realistic with the budget that you have at hand and trying to make the best of that. And I think there are other places outside of just spending media dollars that people can be a lot smarter with, you know, we get a lot of requests for asking for things to go viral. And if I knew how to make things go viral, I would be an influencer right now, and probably rolling in dough for a couple of years. But like, clearly, I don’t know what the secret sauce is, and I don’t think it exists. And so really trying to understand, you know, that it doesn’t, going viral just isn’t necessarily a very strategic thing. Sometimes it just happens, right? And the best way for it to happen is to be very adventurous and authentic and bold with your creative, really understand the target audience that’s really going to clamp on and ride with what you’re saying, you know, become those advocates on your behalf and utilize them. I think, because communities now are so smart, they can really see through your BS really easily. And so, you know, approaching communities authentically and really working with them and having them work as free advocates on your behalf. I think is going to be a much more powerful play than, you know, buying a Super Bowl spot, for instance. And so really thinking about all the avenues that you have at your disposal, and not just really the more traditional advertising channel that you tend to see larger films go about, and really just a lot more AB testing, I think. We tend to have a very interesting challenge within entertainment in that, you know, the film or the TV show itself is also your creative. And while obviously there’s very smart manipulation happening, there are these very very brilliant people, brilliant video producers who are able to manipulate that into a very great and convincing trailer, there’s a lot of other content that you could be working with, like in terms of making means in terms of cutting scenes and clips, or using even the actors and directors at your disposal to produce content, I think that’s a little less traditional than what you see in the space, you know, really deviating away from the 1530 and full trailers, and trying something new. And knowing that the cost really is the cost of creative production, but just putting it out there really doesn’t cost anything to you. And so trying, I think new ways to talk to your audiences with the content that you have and putting a little more elbow grease in so that you can kind of quote on quote, go viral there instead of waiting for your media to help amplify that. So I think there are a lot of different avenues to take. Just don’t take the avenue that was, you know, paved for someone with a very, very different budget.
Sneha (00:33:21)
Amazing. Thank you so much. Super exciting insights. And I’m sure whoever you are marketer brand agency, you had a lot to take away, I sure it. And it’s one of the best parts of hosting the show. I learned a lot today. So thank you so much, Amanda, great to have you here.
Amanda (00:33:41)
Yeah, great. Thank you for having me and happy to come back. This was a lot of fun.
Sneha (00:33:44)
Amazing, amazing. Thank you. Definitely hope to have you back really soon. And to you the one who’s stuck around till the very end. Thank you so much for sticking around and make sure you subscribe to the podcast to listen to the new episodes right when they drop. And if you like the podcast, share it with your teammates, it could be a cool resource to post on your office work chat as a recommendation. So go ahead and do that. And if you want to get in touch, write to us at academy@stackadapt.com That’s academy@stackadapt.com. We have episodes releasing every alternate Wednesdays. So stay tuned. Until then, this has been how agencies Thrive podcast. See you in the next episode.
Episode Outro (00:34:40)
Thank you so much for tuning in. This has been the How Agencies Thrive podcast. If you like what you heard, then there’s three things that you can do to support the show. Number one, subscribe. Number two, leave us a review. And number three, share our podcasts on social media or with anyone who might find value in this content. If you have questions or feedback or just want to learn how agencies and brands work with StackAdapt, you can us at StackAapt.com. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time.
